Sunday, January 15, 2006

Floored!

bta has another swipe at King Solomon - the wisest of all men. In one of the comments he sets down an argument that really gives the lie to the claim that 'The Oral Law' was transmitted through the ages all the way down from Sinai. I Quote:

The Tanach reports that the written Torah was both lost and completely forgotten for over 50 years and only rediscovered by the Temple priests (2Kings 22,8; 2Chronicles 34,15). It is inconceivable that an Oral Law could have been remembered when even the written Law was forgotten!

That is a real whopper. Can there be any sensible response to it? I don't think so.

11 Comments:

At 6:19 PM, Blogger BTA said...

What do you think of my other argument against the Kuzari? (Which I will turn into a post now)It goes like this:

In Nehamia, 8th Perek, it is clear that the Jews of the second temple era hear the torah for the first time in many many years, and weep because of their sense of loss.

What happens next is amazing: They learn for the first time about Succos! Now, Succos is supposed to be a rememberance of the exodus. Moreover, they state clearly that Succos had not been observed since the days of Joshua! Since he took over from Moshe, and I don't believe Moshe observed Succos, that would mean Succos had never been observed until the days of the second temple!

Now, if they didn't remember the rememberance, how exactly did they al lcollectively (from their "bubbes and zaydes") remember the Sinai experience itself? And another question: why didn't they remember *where* Sinai was?! That would seem to be an important place. The aplogetics answer is because God didn't want them to worship the mountain itself. Why, then, do we essentially worship the temple mount and the kotel?

Here is the relevant chapter from Nehamia:


8:13 And on the second day were gathered together the chief of the fathers of all the people, the priests, and the Levites, unto Ezra the scribe, even to understand the words of the law.
8:14 And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:
8:15 And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.
8:16 So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.
8:17 And all the congregation of them that were come again out of the captivity made booths, and sat under the booths: for since the days of Jeshua the son of Nun unto that day had not the children of Israel done so. And there was very great gladness.
8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.


To read how they wept at hearing the torah for the first time, read from the beginning:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/neh/8.html

 
At 7:05 PM, Blogger Jewish Atheist said...

The Tanach reports that the written Torah was both lost and completely forgotten for over 50 years and only rediscovered by the Temple priests (2Kings 22,8; 2Chronicles 34,15).

My latest post is about this subject, although I don't claim it was "completely" forgotten. It's clear from the psukim that at least some of it was.

 
At 4:37 PM, Blogger Lisa said...

Come on... this is just a silly argument. The Torah was "forgotten" at a national level. You think that means it was any more forgotten than it was during the years when the Romans made teaching Torah a capital crime?

Reading out of context isn't very honest.

With regards to Nechemiah, they were reading the Torah to the Jews living in Eretz Yisrael. The ones who'd remained after the First Temple was destroyed and the land was virtually bereft of Jews. The few who were left had intermarried and assimilated to the point that it was new to them.

Nor, bta, does it say that Sukkot hadn't been observed since the days of Joshua. There hadn't been a Sukkot like that one since the days of Joshua.

When I was a kid, I used to watch the Brady Bunch. There was an episode where Greg broke some or other rule, and when his parents called him on it, he played lawyer and pointed out that by their exact words, he hadn't broken any rule. For the rest of the episode, they made him live according to "exact words", and it didn't work out that well.

If you want to play Karaite and read a verse according to the exact written words, entirely out of context, go right ahead. It's childish, and you should be ashamed of yourself, but obviously you're going to use anything you can find to prove what you've already decided on.

 
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At 8:16 AM, Blogger alex said...

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At 1:53 AM, Blogger Ben said...

I agree wtih Lisa.The argument is not strong enough. You are quoting out of context. Still, I appreciate the effort. Keep at it. This is Ben from Israeli Uncensored News

 

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